Need source for a hanger suitable for pendant for an English Two Pound coin (silver center with brass outer ring, edges have engraving also). Tx, Ken damascening involves engraving the outlines of your scroll then hatching the background so that by simple pressure, a thin leaf of gold will adhere to it. when this has been polished it clings to the background and remains in place. Gilding which is what I think you are refering to, is done by appling an amalagam of gold and mercury on to the metal.When the metal was heated the mercury was elminated leaving a thin coat of gold that adhered to the surface. This process was hazardous because of the vapors amitted by the mercury. So the process was eliminated and replaced in the nineteenth century by electroplating. So in essence it was a form of plating. I am looking for information an an engraver that signed his work as j. widman. I have a remington revolver engraved by him that apears to be of very high quality work, and has been silkver plated ? over the engraving. Any information that anyone may have would be greatly appreciated. thank you Sorry, the ball vise in the previous ad is only a 5". Thanks For anyone interested, I have put up a Victor 5 1/2" ball vise on eBay. The item number is 1683159314. I have a cronite pantograph for sale for $1500.00. to see punch up [www.web-ster.com/jerryh/pantograph.jpg]for more info email me.It is complete with a new diamon point.Jerry Huddleston. Can anyone tell me the process for gold damascene work .The kind that was used on antique guns in Europe and France in the 18th century.It is some kind of thin gold overlay. James, Re your post on the case hardened shotgun action. You can anneal the action easily. Disassembe completely, hang by a wire and gently and uniformally heat the entire action with a propane torch up till you get a blue color. This should be about 650 F, let it cool slowly. Polish/file and you are ready to engrave. I have done this for a few engravers and it works well, with no scaling. I don't think I'd try this with the 1911 slide, as it definetly alters the hardness of the steel. Dennis A comment on the Paragon microscope fron Microscope USA; I sent off for one of them and on the recommendation of the manufacturers rep, I also ordered a .5 lense attachment. This will move the distance from lense to object out to 150CM, or about 6in. It also opens the field of view up to nearly twice as large an area. It 's only down side that I can see is it cuts the magnification in half. The addition of a set of X15 eye pieces will get that back up to 7.5 and 22.5 very close to that of a Meiji at a fraction of the cost. The folks at Microscope USA are good to deal with. The only thing I would add is that if your mailing address does not reflect your true location (and mine does not) make sure that the you have Microscope USA put your physical location in the shippint address so FED-EX can find you. My mail comes from one county and I live in a diferent county. FED-EX has never delivered anything directly to me, I have to pick it up in the nearest town. Airborn Express and UPS seem to make it just fine but FED-EX never has. Engraver Tom McArdle with Montgomery College, how can I get in touch with you? mcardle64@hotmail.com and mcardle64@ifriendly.com don't seem to work. want to buy a used in good shape turbocarver or another make of the same type of tool. thanks I've got the engraving book by Meek, but I've read somewhere that he was working on a second book. Has anyone heard this or know something? Thanks. 1) I am having a difficult time cutting a Colt auto slide. The cutting goes well until I hit a hard spot that dulls my HSS and chips my carbide tools every few minutes. what to do ? 2) I would like to resurface and engrave a shotgun action that is case hardened. Any solutions to my tech problems would be greatly appreciated. J Sonberg sam i use the gold line a lot i often send jeff collins colt parts to be gold plated they do a very good job and prices are good To lt col James ?????? Rec'd yuor e mail and was responding when puter locked up. Lost your addy. E- ply or give me a call. I have the info for you. I'm usually home by 1600 hrs,except on fridays.The best time to catch me is on the weekends in the mornings.Feel free to call. i am i need of a hand engraver for cremation urns. i own a casket company in hoboken, new jersey. can you recommend anyone in the new york or new jersey areas. thank you I often am asked where one might get plating done on firearms. Tom Hicks of Lubbock, TX., an old engraver friend from the early days of the guild passed on the following web site. I have not seen any of their work but Tom likes them. They do gold, silver, and both types of nickel plating and specialize in firearms. For what it is worth here is their web site address...www.thegoldline.com Regards, Sam Regarding microscopes for engraving or setting work..... Think about sitting and looking through the scope for many hours at a time without let up. Does it give you headaches, backaches, neck aches or is it comfortable for you to use? A good scope will also be threaded to accept an auxillary lens to change the working distance because different distances work better depending on the work one is doing. You can usually pick up good used scopes on Ebay, sometimes for really good prices. Meiji's are good scopes, but expensive. A person can get the same or better quality at a better price if you look around. Just a note regarding Microscopes. I recently received a Paragon Microscope from MicroscopesUSA.com. My brother purchased the scope in return for some engraving that he wants done. It is 10X/30X with about four inches between the objective lenses and the subject matter that you are working on. I would really like more work room but the magnification is excellent for most of the engraving work that I have come across to date. Over all, I am quite pleased with this scope and at less than $200.00, I consider it to be an excellent value. I hope eventually to get a Meiji from GRS, but even then I will keep my Paragon scope for inspection and display purposes. Good Luck and feel free to e-mail me if you have questions that I can help you with. Could someone knowledgeable in using a microscope for firearm engraving spell out some of the specifications or requirements they feel are necessary or desireable for a microscope please? I have looked at the MicroscopesUSA.com page and see they have a low-cost scope that may be suitable for an entry- level engraver, but is this a suitable scope? What powers do you generally use? Ten seems like a lot to me for the lower end. Also, the working distance on this scope is about 100mm, where the GRS scope is 150mm, is 100 too restrictive? Any comments would be helpfull. OH! I would add that sometimes those guns are made of different stainless for different parts in the same gun also due to manufacturing procedures, so it will also cut differently like that. Sometimes you can find out or check from the serial number when it was made and they will tell you which types it might be because some companies have changed, like Ruger started out with one type and after a few years, went to another type for all their guns. I have info on it somewhere here hiding from me or I could be more exact about it. I usually find out the type if possible and then get a sample piece to sharpen up on first. hello James, I've engraved stainless guns and also stainless watch backs like those hard as chinese arithmetic ROLEX backs and I think the guns cut easier as a lot of them are 18-8 or 300 series stainless which isn't so bad to cut as the watch backs which seem to be stamped out parts and consequently, work hardened.......just my opinion. You can usually find out what type of stainless the gun is made of from the manufacturer which will tell you how it will cut. The higher numbers are harder typically, like 303 or 304, 308, or 316 stainless cut pretty well and 440 is harder, but does also if it hasn't been tempered. Ruger was using 316 at one time and S&W and Colt were using 18-8 or 304. A lot of times a magnet will give you an indication of the type if you cannot get it from the maker as not all stainless are magnetic. Type 304 is magnetic and machines and cuts well, which is why they use it a lot. It also has a darker gray color that most stainless. You can make a magnetizer/demagnetizer from an old field coil like from a motor. Put a piece of steel in from one side, it will magnetize and from the opposite side, it will demagnetize. Makes a handy tool for stainless or steel engraving if you ever have trouble with shavings. HTH I am looking for a hand engraver to engrave 3 old English initials on a 14kt gold signet ring for my son. The man I had lined up to do the engraving has taken ill, and the shop doesn't know of anyone else. Can you help me? I am in the Charlotte area, but if the work is good, I could fedex it, I suppose. Thanks for your help. Please respond to c-harrington@msn.com James, Your jewelry engraving experience will be very valuable to you. Stainless guns are quite often grief. They tend to be harder and grittier just like your experience. Unfortunately gun metal is not as consistent as we would like. Even within the same model type variation exists. I am not the person to answer the annealing question on stainless. Experienced folks sometimes have gun parts annealed for engraving purposes and then rehardened. I have been told there are good metalurgists out there that can do it. M.G. and perhaps James, when it comes to learning engraving nothing is better than a good class. It can save you a lot of time and headache over trying to figure it out yourself. Glendo corporation and a college in Susanville CA are two that offer courses. I don,t know much about Susanville except the names of some of the instructions and they are first rate. Glendo courses are one week long, very intensive, well equipped and terrific instructors. They are located in Emporia KS.Hope this helps. My engraving experience for the last fifteen years has been jewelry business oriented. So most of my experience is with gold and silver. On occasion I have engraved stainless steel watch backs and have found the metal almost impractical to work with being gritty and super hard. I am interested in getting into gun engraving and am curious as to how people engrave stainless guns. Do they tough it out through the brittle metal or do they anneal it first and then have it rehardened after engraving? Can stainless be annealed and if so does rehardening leave a stuborn coat of oxidized metal on the surface? Also, most modern blued steel guns look like hardened metal to me. Is this so or are most steel guns as easy as mild steel to engrave? What should one expect to encounter regarding metal hardness and rebluing after engraving? What are the typical annealing, rehardening and refinishining steps one normally goes through when engraving modern weapons? I read James B. Meeks book on the subject and he never mentions anything about metal hardness or refinishing. The little experience I have with stainless steel tells me it is an unappealing medium for an artist in it's hard state. The subject of metal hardness and refinishing is one that I cannot find comprehensive information on. Earlier in this forum I saw a little conversation about it. Can anyone enlighten me on this subject? How hard are most blued steel guns? what is the best way to get started as far as training as an engraver? I have a lot of artistic ability, am into Cowboy action shooting, and have an appreciation for engraved cowboy firearms. I found a little air compressor really cheap at Harbour Frieght for $99 on sale from $140. Here are the specs: Motor:115V, 60 Hz, 3450 RPM Air delivery: 5.2 SCFM @ 40 PSI 4.2 SCFM @ 90 PSI 125 PSI maximum recommended pressure Oil lubrication Weight: 51 lbs. ITEM 38898-5VGA Bought it for a dentist drill carver and it runs it fine. It would probably run a GraverMax. Only problem is it's a bit noisy and it should have an extra tank attatched. Regarding compressors, IF you are mechanically inclined, go ahead and pick up an $80.00 (or so) refridgerator compressor. The compressor you have now has all of the gauges, regulators and relief valve systems that you will need. Hook everything up and you can use am empty propane tank or other gas bottle that you can get at a welding supply (the latter is preferable but more coastly). When completed, you have a system that may well last you 30 years or more. Be sure that you get the largest tank that you can afford or scrounge as with all compresssed air systems, the larger, the less you have to run the compressor. Back in the early 1960's my Dad put togather a system like that for himself and for me to use and the system was still working the last time I used it in 1995. Shortly after that Dad finally broke down and bought a commercially made compressor as he wanted somthing portable with wheels and didn't want to build up that much of a system himself. Good Luck to you! Oh one more thing, being the type of compressor that it is, it is VERY quiet. :) Had a compressor burn out on me recently so went looking for a new one. Here is what I found out from a couple of folks who repair and don't sell them: 1) Get a common name compressor - like a Cambel-Hausfiled or an Ingersoll-Rand etc. The reason is that parts are easy to get. The harder the parts are to get the longer it takes to fix and the more expensive it becomes. And they can be repaired almost anywhere from new or used parts. 2) They recommended a twin cylinder 60 gallon oil C-H unit. They have been a home and factory standard for years and have a good reputation and you don't spend a gazillion dollars for one. Parts are easy to get and inexpensive and most repair people know what can go wrong with them and have lots of practice so labor stays reasonably cheap. 3) Get a vertical tank. The larger the tank the less cycle (run) time there is so the unit will last longer. It also allows you to do things like run sandblasting equipment and other air applications without having to worry about reserve. 4) Break it in the right way - either new or rebuilt. Here is what I was told by a couple of different repair shops: a) use Castrol synthetic oil. Run the unit in place for 24 hours with cock wide open. b) Change the oil, still using Castrol synthetic close cock a bit and run it for another day so that it cycles on and off several times a minute to once every five minutes or so. Change oil. c) Fill with fresh Castrol synthetic and close cock just a bit more and run for another day so that it cycles every ten to fifteen minutes or so. Change oil. d) You have broken in the unit so it is nearly perfect. 3) build a double walled shed for it. Pour a good concrete pad, and use foam insulation under it if you can to help with condensation inside the 'box'. Use either 2X4 or even better 2X6 inch construction with 12 - 16 inch centers. On outer shell use ¾ inch or better CDX plywood. Use lots of nails (screws are better) and glue the boards to the studs.. Insulate with rigid foam or Styrofoam boards cut to fit. And glued in place if you can. Tape around insulation. At this point get some plastic pipe - anything from 2 inch to 4 inch and bring it in using a street el fitting top an bottom (this brings in air to the compressor. Don't forget to put some screen mesh on it to keep out bugs, bats, and birds. Bring it in from the outside top to the inside bottom. Finish off with glued and nailed ( or screwed) ¼ inch ply. 5) using either 2X4 or 2X6 studs, off set from original studs and leaving about a half inch barrier of air between walls -- fill with fiber glass insulation. Bring the pipe through this wall and cut second wall of ¼ inch ply. Glue and nail (or screw) this in place. Now what you have is a double walled structure with an air space between the two walls If you want you can put egg cartons in the space, but they tend to deteriorate over time so no need to really do this - you can also use the 'egg carton mattress covers" to fill this space if you want - but the general consensus was: overkill. The top of the double wall is capped off with ¼ inch to ½ inch ply. And a standard roof is set - use 2/4 or 2x6's -- flat is good enough but you will need ¾ inch CDX and sealer and paint and shingles if it is flat. Line the top with double thick fiberglass insulation. For the vent use a set of els that form a figure like the letter 'S' on it's side. If you want real quiet you can make a couple of distance runs so you would have an el and a foot or so of pipe and then another el and some more pipe - the idea is to 'baffle' the sound going in and out of the enclosed space. The double wall insulation - the glue and nails (Screws are better), the rigid foam and the fiber glass will all act to cut down on noise transfer. Make your door so that it closes in a step rather than in a flat surface - so the door will close with a fitting that looks like a 'Z'. And don't forget to put in weather stripping - even if it is just inner tubes cut to close tight. They say that standing next to it you will know that there is a compressor running, but fifteen feet away or inside a house you won't hear it at all. Have the drain cock facing the door, and ditto the oil sump. Set the compressor on 2X6 with some rubber between it and the floor - you can set bolts in the concrete when it is drying so you can fasten the 2X6's to them and make a solid contact that won't vibrate. The rubber between the wooden rails the compressor is set to and the concrete floor will help dampen the sound. Use only Castrol synthetic oil and change it twice a year no matter what. At each season is better, but start of summer and beginning of winter is good enough. I asked them how come they were telling me this if they repaired compressors. Their answer made sense to me: I am repairing compressors that my father and grand father put in, and my son will be repairing yours. Because we have that reputation, we can leave a business and a legacy to our children. They told me that the total cost for the shed here in Nevada County, if you did the work yourself and had a few nails and screws and such handy would be under 200 dollars! The C-H unit recommended by most firms is about $400. So for about 600 dollars and a weekend of work you will have a compressor that will put out 12.5 SCFM, should last 15 years or more, and will be nearly silent inside a home. You will be able to sandblast, and run other air tools - and if all you are doing is engraving - it will cycle so little that the unit will probably outlive you. And with the 60 gallon size it is a take with you when you move unit. I was looking for a quiet compressor on E-Bay and saw that they ran between 400 and a thousand, and when I called the repair shops about them to find out about reliability when I mentioned the brand names most shook their heads over the phone - you know how you can tell when they do that - and said: well, we might get parts for them - but have you thought about a more common unit? - and I had not. I had dismissed them as too loud, too big, too clunky - but when they put things into perspective I saw the light and thought I'd share it with all of my brothers out there. Call around on your own and double check me - my bet is you will be told that this will work perfectly well and be quiet as a mouse. FOR SALE - original style gravermiester with two handpieces $500.00 OBO plus shiping Just thought I'd drop a short line for everyone,,,I an not wealthy by a long shot and being new to engraving(respectively) I don't have the finances to buy one of the Meiji microscopes. A family member wanted some engraving done and offered a trade, I researched (on line) some differand scopes. I found one that i thought would work and my family member ordered it. I received the scope this morning and I can tell you that I am quite pleased with it. The scope is from MicroscopesUSA.com, it is 10X / 30X so it has plenty of power when needed and the 10X seems best for engraving. The cost of this scope is only $189.00 pluss shipping and handeling. About the only area where I would have liked it differant would be to have a greater working distance, however there is about 4" - 5" clearance between the obkective lenses and the work peice so you can get in there. I would reccomend the scope to anyone looking for a lower priced alternative to the higher end scopes currently sold for the trade. And one more thing, the scope is pedistal mounted so it is easy to adapt to other types of stands. Good Luck and enjoy :) Hi to all, what a n awsome site. I was recently retired (medically) and yet I still NEED to work. I got Voc-Rehab to help me out with some tools and equipment, however, my income is very low and I have little to invest in anything other than my family. I am desparately in need of ANY book, videos or any other teachin/learning materials. I would also deeply appreciate it if any one could donate any practice plates, China White or any other engraving related materials. I want to thank you all for any help in advance. Sorry Mitch, maybe I spoke too soon but the sandblasting caught my attention I guess. Steve Lindsay also sells those high speed rotary tools on his web site @ http://www.airgraver.com/rotary.html if you should be interested and his prices are very competitive. HTH Hey Mitch!. I do hand engraving, not trophies or awards, and use high speed air tools. Not familiar with Powercraft. Occasionally use a Foredom for rough carving. Suggest you try looking at TurboCarver. Believe it is Turbocarver.com. They have a high speed unit that is oiless, which is very desireable and has a mist adapter if desired. Price is reasonable. You will need a regulator on any air unit no matter the make. There was an engraver who posted here that said he would be happy to provide info on tools, burrs etc. He never answered me. Regards. Dewey Hello Mitch, This list is composed of hand engravers and firarms engravers mostly. You should try: http://lexx.nbm.com/index.php?page=aegeneral This is the web site for Awards and Engraving Magazine, a trade publication whose site has classified ads and information more related to what you are seeking. HTH NEED ADVICE AND OPINIONS: 1.) Can anyone recommend a good place, with reasonable prices, to buy a hand held high speed engraving tool? Years ago I spent too much. I am looking at a Powercrafter PC205E Kit for $250.00 and a Foredom 350K Air Turbine for $399.00. Does anyone have an opinion on these models and prices? Any suggestions about others? Will I need an air regulator? 2.) Can you recommend a reasonably priced, QUIET or soundless air compressor? 3.) I also do sandblasting. Any leads as to where I can find good artwork? 4.) Suggested instructional books or tapes about relief carving with power tools? 5.) Best place / prices to buy burs or bits? Sorry to sound like 20 Questions, but I just found this Bulletin Board today and have had questions about these things for quite some time. If you can help, please respond as soon as possible. Thanks!!! I am distributing a shipment of new "Meiji" style stereo zoom microscopes, 7-45X including either a heavy ball bearing, double bar boom stand or the new flex arm style stand plus a 0.5x auxillary lens for $1195, shipping paid. We also have the new flourescent ring lights, the halogen illuminators and light tubes and rings, auxillary lens, plus all the gemological accessories all at very good prices, lower than the major suppliers. These microscopes are great- I use one everyday and love the range of motion one gets with the flex arm stand. Anyone interested should email me off list at the address below. Hi I'm new to this forum but not to hand engraving , would love to show my hand engravings to one and all interested . , and any questions pertaining to .engraving . More info to either my email or the phone number . Lee, about shading gold I have found a great permanent technique that only works on 14k yellow gold. 18k and white golds will not take a patina. This process produces a rainbow of colors. I use between 2 and 3 grams (larger quantities will dull the polish)) of liver of sulfur into 8oz.s of tap water in a stainless steel bowl and slow boil the 14k yellow object in the solution for up to 8 hours. Add more water as it boils away. It is imperitive that the solution not be allowed to boil down to no water as this will burn the surface black and dull. Also, casting metal with deoxidant or regular metal with fire scale will not take the patina. I use a good yellow rolling alloy for all my casting and fabricating. Finish, engrave and polish the object as you normally would. Make sure no raw cast surfaces remain and all fire scale from soldering has been removed. The trick is by boiling in this weak sulfur solution the object stays shiny! The patina starts from dark yellow turns into bright reds then begins to go nut on its' way to blue and purple. Think of the burn colors you see on a shiny Harley exhaust pipe. Practice and carefull monitoring will allow you to achieve every color with the darkest being a blue black. And the coolest part is that it's permanent and the metal remains polished and shiny. Simply buff the patinated item with zam then rouge to expose the yellow gold highlights as desired. The dark color remains permanently in the recesses. Only attempt this if you have an excellent exhaust system and hood in your studio. Just the smallest whiff of this stuff and I break out in hives and feel way too irritable to make jewelry or engrave for the rest of the day. Don't touch it or smell it and you'll be ok. Disdcard used solutions. If you make it too strong the metal will actually begin to etch away leaving a dull crystaline pattern on the surface. Any great ideas on shading gold? I see pictures from time to time with great contrast. I have wondered whether they are doctoring it just for the picture. In particular my questions would be mechanical applications (lines vs. stippling) and chemical treatments such as coloring agents, paints or anything else. Pete in response to learning engraving, I have no experience with correspondence courses. I know some of the GRS people and if you have the time and money that will shave significant time off your learning curve. Don't overlook the need for good fundamental drawing instruction. If you want your eyes opened to wonderful upper end engraving visit the guild show in Reno in Feb. On the monday following the show free seminars are put on by experienced engravers. They have been very beneficial to me. FOR SALE -GRS power hone with 600 wheel and basic tool jig also engraving ball vise aprox 20lbs both ex condition $250.00 ea OBO plus shipping Hi all, I am a master goldsmith working up here in my workshop in Maine. From time to time I would like to get hand engraving on chalices and goblets, bowls and silverware that I make. I do a little myself but my area of expertise is in fabrication. Right now I dont have any jobs needing graving work, but would love to here from any one and see their work. Contact me (Ed Dawson)at customjewelers@aol.com Novice getting started Greetings all, I am intersted in getting started in hand engraving. I just ordered "Engraving on Precious Metal" and am thinking about maybe taking an internet beginners course or taking a GRS week long class. Any and all advise would be appreciated on getting up to speed ASAP. As a beginner should I think about getting an impact engraver or learn with hand tools? Any other book recommendations? Thanks! Pete Pricing is one of the most difficult things to do. I've always have had that problem along with just about everyone else. Of course we are always trying to "push" the price a bit so that we make out well or as we deserve. I was told this answer to the question many years ago by and engraver......."If you have a large backlog, you're too cheap. If you have no backlog, you're too expensive." Well that seems to work a bit. Of course there are always some jobs that you let slide in at a lesser price because either you like the client or it looks like a fun job to do and the timing is right. Then again there is sometimes the job yu just don't want to do so you make the price worth you while. So hope that helped to confuse everyone just a little bit more. Hi there: Just found this place. I'm a retired knife/sword maker who never quite got into engraving in those days. Now I've gotten into making coins, and of course the all-important dies for same. I like the fact that you make a die-set once... with all the skill you can muster, and then you can cycle the press a number of times and offer examples of your work to the public for far less than an original master. Up to now I have been acid etching my dies, but am seeking to learn the art of die-sinking, which appears to involve machine-work as well as engraving, punching, and hobbing. My web-page on the coining I've done so far is at http://shirepost.com/Coinage.html I found my way here while seeking a source for a used engraving block... I'm having a heck of a time holding the dies even for acid etching. I just got a 20x stereo scope which helps immensely, but now need to figure a better bench system in order to have room to manipulate under the scope and still see what I'm doing. I have the feeling I'm trying to re-invent the wheel. BTW, this looks like a cool place. I will bookmark and return! For sale: 5" dia. ball vise and attachments. $250 plus actual shipping/ins. Email for more info if interestsed. Jay Good questions. I'll add some thoughts of my own. Pricing is very difficult. Reputation,quality, speed and other factors vary with each engraver. Even if I knew what the good ones like Sam would charge for a particular job, their reputation and quality should demand for them a premium over what most of us can do. To charge by the hour will allow fast engravers to do a job cheaper. Having confused everyone now I will admit that I do it like Sam. Estimate the time required and times by an hourly rate. Also like Sam I always put more into it than I estimate. I do wish I knew what others charge for somewhat standard jobs such as barrel lettering, quarter rib matting, gold line by the inch and gold letters. Custom work such as game scenes are highly individualized. Money is important but I've never been about turning a dollar bill. If I had, I suppose I would have attacked this differently. I want every piece regardless of how small to be the best I can possibly do. My view has been long-range. I am sacrificing short-term money hoping that some day people will give away the farm just to have a piece of my work. Well, everybody has to have a dream and because that will probably never happen i still have the satisfaction of doing my best. One last word. Do not be too jealous of people who get big projects they are usually less money/hour. Let's hear it from the rest. Hello everyone! I do mostly jewlery and silver right now, although the guns and knives are increasing in frequency. I usually charge $1.50 -$3.00 per letter, depending on the font. More of they are to be shaded. I get $40.00 for a 3 letter script mongram ona flat surface, up to about asixe of 1' diameter or so. I recently engraved a flintlock pistol for a living history museum near hear. They were willing to spend $300.00 for the engraving. I mamged to please them, do a good job, and finish right around 10 hours. I wish they were all this easy! I am finding that getting a price range the customer is able to spend in is the most important starting point. I can then submit a drawing based on the amount. I too would rather spend more time if necessary, becuase the work will last longer than the extra time saved or spent. On a good day I can knock out script mongrams at around 30 or 35 minutes. Even at a wholesale rate of $20.00 per piece, if i could get enough of that kind of work, i would be making good money! Thanks to all for getting thew discussion going again. Tom Sam your'e an artist.I too have trouble making the "good" rate,but a job well done is compensation enough.And we all know an artist never gets his just due,but we get the satisfaction in knowing that we did our best. I also appreciate your rhetoric on the subject of pricing. Thank you.Christopher Hallo,friends engravings, can me somebody advise st. to? Search inf about chemist constitution watering-place on blue colours on surface weapon. Only such,what a possible use at home. Labour under at home with watering-place on black colours. Simple trust and little expensive!Perhaps 2 dollars on 5 weapon set. NaOH+NaNo3+H2O,temperature 150. Celsius,time some 20 minutes, Mixing at home,labour under at home,isn't problem....Mixture bought from firm is very beloved. Good black. Blue,like has S&W -it with unsuccessful?! Knows somebody why? May I advise st. to-gilding,silvering,passivation,cleaning Au,Ag,nickel,-all galvanic and at home. Exact terms ingredient on blue colours shan't. Thanks great deal of behind counsel. My net.aspect- http://nav.to/strechovsky Martin Czech Republic Europe Martin Darren, some time back Rex conducted a survey of pricing among guild members. I don't remember the max and min numbers but I think I remember the average was $35 per hour. I have kept notes over the years on how long projects take and the area of coverage. You need to figure out how long it takes to do a square inch of each type of work that you do and decide how much per hour you need and go from there. That is the way I do it. I then give the customer a firm quote based on a firm design. Of course, I always end up spending more time than I estimated and never make the hourly rate I wish for...so maybe you should find another way. Sam Count me in to. I come by here everyday to see what’s new. I guess I’ll pose a question that I have been wondering about. I don’t know if this question has been brought up before in this forum, so hear it is. How does one determine pricing? I know that reputation has a lot to do with it, but is the base pricing charged by the square inch depending on the complexity of the style? Or maybe by the hour? And what about lettering? Is there a minimum charge and then so much per letter? Anyway I thought I would through this out to you all. I would love to hear from firearms engravers as well as jewelry engravers on this subject. I know I haven’t hit on every aspect of this question but maybe it will get the ball rolling. And if anyone would be willing to share there price list I would love to see one. Thanks all …..Darren Count me in...I swing by here almost daily and am always happy to see activity! Sam Duane and Lee I agree with you. I wish more people would use this form more. It helps me to learn new things. I too cheak daily this form and hand engraving form and neither one has been used for weeks. Thanks Curt Lee Griffiths suggestion to direct replies to forum rather than individuals is a great one. It's what makes forums work. I check this one almost daily to see what I might be able to learn from others. Dewey: Good morning everyone. I appreciate all the comments. It's like my on-line engraving clinic.Instead of replying directly to the individual who submitted the query, please consider replying to the general forum. It is a great benefit to all the rest of us. Happy engraving. FOR SALE: Gravermeister. I bought it new in January'99.This unit is in excellent condition and it is the oil-less, high speed valve version w/ range from 1600 to 2400 strokes per minute.Will sell with or without standard quick change hand piece.Great for beginner or professional. Thanks to everyone for the advice on small lettering layout. After explaining the difficulties to the customer, and stating that i would rather wait ubtil I got a microscope, they decided to try someone else. I am sure it was for the best! Thanks again, Tom For sale chronite pantograph.for photos punch up Http://www.web-ster.com/jerryh/pantograph.jpg and Http://www.web-ster.com/jerryh/pantograph2.jpg. for info call or email.anytime. To be the main supplier on optics in China, all kinds of optical & scientific instruments such as microscopes, telescopes, binoculars, optical lens are exporting to all over the world. 1. EDUCATIONAL MICROSCOPE 2. COMPOUND BIOLOGICAL MICROSCOPE 3. STEREO MICROSCOPE 4. STEREO ZOOM MICROSCOPE 5. PHOTO MICROSCOPE 6. VIDEO MICROSCOPE 7. METALLURGICAL MICROSCOPE 8. GEMOLOGY MICROSCOPE 9. FLUORESCENT MICROSCOPE 10. OTHER OPTICAL & SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS For children, student, college, laboratory & industry, on fields of medical circle, chemical analysis, clinical test, science researches... We are seeking the business partner worldwide for the distribution of our products & looking forward to establishing long term co-operation relationship with you. Providing you both high quality products and services at best price is our goal. OEM orders will be highly welcomed. Mr. Maosheng Guo your best partner on optics in China! for some information on our products, you may visit at http://microscope.home.sohu.com Your earlier reply and further inquiry will be highly appreciated. Best regards/maosheng guo/manager WANTED: Used stereo microscope suitable for hand engraving . HI - I AM LEARNING TO ENGRAVE AS A HOBBY. I HAVE THE "JAMES MEEK" BOOK, "AMERICAN ENGRAVERS", "CUSTOM FIREARMS ENGRAVING" AND THE "NIMSCHKE BOOK" I AM INTERESTED IN ADDING TO MY COLLECTION FOR STUDY. IF ANYONE HAS ANY BOOKS THEY WOULD LIKE TO SELL, PLEASE CONTACT ME AT E-MAIL gailc@pacifier.com. THANK YOU RAND CRANDALL Just want to ditto Lee Griffiths msg. Lets keep this great country united. Attended a prayer meeting today. God bless America and everyone impacted by this senseless tragedy. Thanks Rex for the note and picture on the homepage. Lee We have at least 10 like new, "Paragraphics" "Paragravers" for sale. Whether you work with wood, stone, bone, eggshell, stainless steel, or glass, the PARAGRAPHICS'® custom engraver is a not only a wonderful addition to your workshop--it also allows you to produce the quality of work you have always dreamed of. Please call or e-mail for further info. Hi! I have an old logging saw that needs to be de-rusted and engraved as a wedding gift. Because of the length of logging saws, it has to be done by hand. Anyone out there set up for this? Preferable near to Montana? Ok -- here is a quesiton -- my compressor took a good hit -- cement block hit it during a robery and so it went belly up -- Campbell Hausfeld as a compressor -- the FP 2002 or 2003 series and they are QUIET -- but they only put out point 7 (0.7) CFM and the gravermax wants 2.0 -- QUESTION -- can I hook the Campbell Hausfeld up to a larger tank so that I feed off the tank and not the compressor -- since there is all that down time between working and not working (spinning the vice, etc) would the comprssor burn out -- or would it be a good way to get a quiet compressor for a hundred dollars (wally world price) and then add fifty dollars for a 20 gallon (on sale) tank so I could have the flow, the quiet, and the deal of a life time -- or would it turn out to be a nightmare in discuise? thanks for any replies. Just finished watching the 2001 seminar tapes. Ron, Ralph and Sam done great jobs. In my opinion these tapes are a must for every engravers library. Thanks guys Need advise: Using high speed rotary for gunstock engraving & glasswork. Plan on upgrading to an oil-less rotary, possibly with water capabilities. Anyone using? And where is a good in-expensive place to obtain burs? Used to be able to get them from my dentist. Also would like to start sandcarving. Mainly champagne glasses and mirror tile. Can someone recommend a descent starting unit? Bench top (pencil type) or floor model? What about making your own resist stencils and with what? A lot of questions but I would like to get good information, rather than blindly going ahead. Thanks in advance for any and all information and assistance. duanesdsmith100@cs.com (Dewey) Henry, give us a report when you have tried it out so we will all know what it actually is. Thanks, Sam Sam, Thanks for the response, you are probably right. I was of the impression it was some sort of an amalgam process. I will order some and try it on a belt buckle.Let me thank youand all the guild oficers for a great job. Henry Just looking at the catalog I would assume it is one of those kits for gluing bits of gold into grooves...not for animals or true inlaying. Anyone else check this out? Sam Has anyone out there ever tried using the 23kt gold inlay kit sold by Brownells. If so does it give satisfactory results and how much coverage can you get, say in an animal figure? I am assuming you would undercut the same as a standard inlay. Thanks in advance. Does anyone have any tips on very small lettering layouts? How about scroll? I am curious about methods for laying out work that will be done under a microscope, as I hope to be getting one before the end of the year. I have a job coming up, which will involve an inscirption containing around 50 letters, to be placed in a space that is 1" by 15/16". I will have to do it before I get my scope. Thanks, Tom Hello Hawaii: Got your message on the phone. I'm usually here at 1600 hs. MON TUE FRI AND ALL DAY SAT & SUN MORNING IS THE BEST TIME ON THE WEEKENDS. Either give me a call or e-MAIL me. I'll be looking forward to hearing from you. C U LATER ROCK Inasmuch as I failed to see the comment section in the bulletin board section. I failed to make a comment. X-CUUUUSE ME. Anyhow I've been reading about peoples comments on drawing wire. To the one about "Why do I need a drawplate?" They are worth their weight in gold. I have one with carbide inserts and with proper usage, they will last the rest of your life, unless you're drawing massive amounts of wire. Tongs are also indespensible as they eliminate the breakage of the tang when they are used properly. Feel free to E-mail me for further info. having several sizes of wire is handy as it saves a lot of drawing in some circumstances. I always start with factory stock because of the uniform ouality. I've tried making my own, but it is a PAIN IN THE A. I hope this info helps someone out there.It took a lot of head banging to figure it out. Good luck and happy smithing. By the way this is a GREAT PAGE!!!!! C U LTR C. ROCK I'M LOOKING FOR A DECENT,USED PANTAGRAPH STYLE HAND ENGRAVING MACHINE W/FONTS. WITH ALL THE COMPUTER ENGRAVERS OUT THERE THERE MUST BE A PILE OF THEM SOMEWHERE! ANY HELP IN POINTING ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. THANK YOU. ROCK. Rio Grande sells a lacquer for silver jewelry that is supposed to be pretty good and it comes in different tints and is applied with heat that is used for jewelry. If you just want to remove tarnish easily, take a plastic container and line the bottom with aluminum foil and to this add a solution of washing soda, (sodium carbonate) and water. It will strip the tarnish from any silver items you put in it pretty quickly. HTH Need help for tarnish prevention. Does any one out there know of a good way to prevent tarnish on engraved silver? I am currently using pro-craft laquer but am unhapy with the results.I need something tougher than wood-pecker lips. V.G. Wagoner. I recently viewed an L.C. Smith engraved and signed by V.G. Wagoner. Does anyone out there know who he is and anything about him. Thanks. hello,curt and joe i use high speed rotary tools in my studio each day and yes you can get great ones for a lot less than most are sold for. i use THE NSK PRESTO, THE TURBO CARVER ,AND SEVERAL HOMEMADE MODELS, THE TURBO CARVER HAS TWO MODELS ONE YOU CAN US WITH OR WITH OUT WATER IT WORKS GREAT ON GLASS ,BONE, IVORY, STONE, AND ALL METALS. THE SECRET TO A ROTARY TOOL IS SPEED YOU WANT ONE THAT CAN GIVE YOU 350,000 TO 450,000 RPM .IT IS THE SPEED THAT DOES THE WORK. ALSO THE MODELS I US (DO NOT) NEED LUBE THEY ARE TOTALLY LUBE FREE, WHICH IS GREAT IF YOU WORK ON WOOD. I HAVE A GRAVERMEISTER ,GRAVERMAX,FOUR SAND BLASTERS.AND SEVERAL OTHER TOOLS I USE AND WOULD LIKE TO SAY THEY ALL HAVE THERE PLACE. IF I CAN BE OF ANY HELP PLEASE CALL OR E-MAIL I ALSO CAN GIVE YOU INFO WERE TO GET GOOD DIAMOND,CARBIDE BURS AT ASUPER PRICE MY WIFE AND I CARVE AND ENGRAVE ALMOST ANY THING IN OUR STUDIO AND HAVE FOUND ALL TOOLS HAVE THERE SPECIAL USE. I HOPE I'VE BEEN OF HELP TO ANY ONE OUT THERE I'VE BEEN ENGRAVING FOR 29 YEARS AND still find new tools to use. YOUR SERVENT Denver A. Rohner ( owner ANCIENT ART ENGRAVING ) Hi,am a glass engraver(stone)from Cincinnati Ohio.. Am looking to do some freelance work,since at my full time job, 80% of my egravings are monograms.. I would like to do more design work.. so am looking for a cutting lathe.. Would like something that's in good working condition,but I would consider one that needs some work if need be.. Any info or suggestions would be greatly appreciated..Thanks! RE: GOLD AND SILVER WIRE // this summer my sweetie took an engraving course and ordered wire from /// Ray Viramontez 601 Springfield Drive Albany, GA 31707 (912) 432-9683 E-Mail: sgtvira@aol.com Ray is one of the small number of Americans who are European trained, having studied in Germany under the engraver Werner Schuck. Ray be www.fega.com //// I also know that Rio Grande findings Catalog also sells wire. Most jewlers also have multiple catalogs other than the rio grande that offer wire -- and a jewler who won't show you the catalog when you obviously know that they have one probably isn't going to be much help anyway -- often they will sell at catalog plus a VERY small 'processing' fee. I will check locally here and in nevada city -- but bet I could find a cheap 'processing fee' for set amounts of wire and postage. good luck. RE: GOLD AND SILVER WIRE -- I know that various catalogs carry such material -- one of which is the rio grande findings catalog -- another source was used this summer and I think it is available from: /// Ray Viramontez 601 Springfield Drive Albany, GA 31707 (912) 432-9683 E-Mail: sgtvira@aol.com Ray is one of the small number of Americans who are European trained, having studied in Germany under the engraver Werner Schuck. Ray be www.fega.com //// I think he was the one who sent the 'student' kit to my sweetie. I was never good enough to learn proper inlay -- a couple of tries and I turned to landscape -- but she did well with his material. Good Luck Wanted:Used Gravermax or Gravemiester . Please e-mail me with availability/price-Thanks-Joe I'm looking for someone that I can learn firearms and knife engraving from. I would really like to learn from a practicing engraver. I have reviewed the GIA site but would rather learn from "A Gun Person". I'm 45 and live in Southern California. I can also offer services to trade as I am a licensed electrican and security (burglar alarm and closed circuit TV) installer. Can anybody help? I'M IN NEED OF GOLD & SILVER WIRE IN SMALL QUANITIES CAN ANYONE GIVE ME SOME INFO ON THIS AND WHERE TO GET IT NEED USED EQUIPMENT. As mentioned earlier my sweetheart just finished just over a month of the intensive NRA engraving classes at Lassen College. She is good, and that is not to brag and is probably an understatement. Of course she learned with some excellent teachers and some good equipment -- manly GRS stuff. But it was all mine. And I have great fear of loosing much of it. I was just writing to another engraver about his question about belt buckle blanks way back in 99 and it dawned on me -- I have access to one of the finest groups of people on the face of the earth. So -- If you have any useable reasonably good equipment laying around, I sure would be willing to accept it. I am thinking about things like old graving blanks you will probably not use since you changed your equipment -- some old steel graver handles or wooden ones you aren't going to be using, old bottles of China White you don't want to mess with re conditioning -- I would be more than willing to accept it. That goes for old books - please don't send your Wilsons, I have some of them - sometimes 'old' is good - but we could use any old gun parts (non operational parts guys - don't want ATF on us because of that fully auto selector switch someone made for that old Browning A-1) that are unusable but engraveable so she can hone her skills - she has already gone through nearly a box of my old useless parts! ALSO -- while on a very limited budget I would also be interested in good (working) condition air gravers or shaft tools (I don't even own one of those) -- I would be willing to entertain thoughts on buying some. This woman is talented -- a born artist -- Sam Welsh was her last instructor -- so to verify that statement about her skill - you might want to just drop him a line asking simply: is she good or not. I am sure he wouldn't mind a short and to the point question that required a single word reply. And I am certain that John Barraclough would also honestly vouch for her astonishing ability - from never having even cut a line to doing work that she is able to trade out to machine shop guys for tools -- she is one of the special ones - as I am sure any of the teachers above would vouch for in private - or call the gun smiting program at the college and ask for Gary Boyd - another instructor who can vouch for her uncanny ability. Phone numbers are: (530) 251-8809 (530) 251-8800 She is a teacher, but think she would rather be doing firearms engraving for a living and will be joining our guild as soon as she figures out if she is going to work in Susanville, or down in the central valley of California and she gets that first pay check. So --- any old (or new) stuff you don't use I am certain she would, and I would love you forever because she would not be 'borrowing' mine -- and as you all know engraving is not cheap to get into -- and it never gets real cheap as you are constantly needing to make little things of one kind or another and buy the stuff you can't make. So -- any help you can send her way, I know she would appreciate it only a little more than me. Anything, anything at all, would be more than welcomed. Especially if she gets a job 50 miles from where she stays at our family home and that is about 200 miles from where I live. I thank you all in Advance -- I am Paul Galioni, a Proud Guild Member -- but you can send them to her at: Ali Stanfill 458 Alexander Susanville, CA 96130 my phones are (530) 257-9716 (home) (530) 2512-8893 (work) If this woman was not so damn talented, I would never ask such a thing from any guild member. While many people who want to engrave come and go -- this woman is here to stay. And, besides, I think she is a keeper - professionally and personally. So -- what ever you wish to send her -- I know she would love and cherish. If it doesn't work, I am sure we can find a way to make it work -- fractured face - she'll unfracture it, broken wooden handle - she'll glue and fit it. Liner getting a little short? She would love it. Hex head needs threading -I am certain she will tap it. You get the idea -- giving one of the true artists I have seen a good honest start with good honest people. And, like I say -- we are fairly poor right now -- four people one income two houses, you get the picture -- but I am willing to purchase things to make her life easier and her production more prolific - so don't leave out those offers - they will be less entertained, but good deals will be agonized over - if it has to do with engraving - even those old bowling ball vices - heck, we'll take them and treat them like gold. I thank you again -- what better group to ask than the Guild itself to give a helping hand to a woman destined for greatness. I have already given her everything -- perhaps the way to think of it is - give ME my equipment back, LOL, thanks again my Guild Brothers -- I know there is Honor here and that everyone will do what they can -- even if it is simply good wishes -- (for they are powerful too). Thank you all again from my heart - were this woman not even related to me I would be able to look at her work and be dumbstruck for words because of the absolutely innate skill she shows, and even though there are two of us in the same household and only one of us really needs to belong to the Guild - she WANTS to join because it is simply the right thing to do. Perhaps that says more about her than any other words I can use. Thank you again from my Heart of Hearts. She is, again: Ali Stanfill 458 Alexander Susanville, CA 96130 (530)- 257-9716 ROCK ENGRAVING TOOLS -- My sweetheart just finished a bunch of NRA engraving classes at Lassen College -- and is good. she engraves about as well as I did after seven years of more -- at the end of a month. Of course my Master John Vest said things like never use air for five years and never touch soft metal for three -- or the other way around, and I believed him. I am sure he is right -- but when my sweetie can engrave better than me after a month -- I wonder -- just kidding John -- what I am wondering now is where do you go to get good rock engraving gravers? Seems she wants to now give a try to rocks -- and the small handmade tools we all tend to use will work on a granite bolder in our front yard -- but there must be something faster -- i.e. larger that would fit into a gravermax hand piece -- or a tool smaller than an Ingersoll-Rand Jack Hammer and larger than a bollino hand piece. Can't seem to find a place on the internet -- can anyone help? While it may seem Macabre -- she says she'll grave my stone (pardon the pun) if I will grave her stone -- and thinking about a nice polished granite store with some nice western scroll work on it has a certain appeal to it. Any one have a clue where to go to find good tools? thanks. RE FFL's -- I once read that (and I am making up these numbers, but they are reflective of reality: 1 phone call = 20 voters 1 computer composed and written letter = 100 voters 1 hand typed letter = 200 voters 1 hand written letter = 1500 votes. This a short hand written note is most important because it counts for more people. Short notes count the same as long ones. Starting with the History Of the Firearm as a Weapon and then writing 3, 000 pages on how come engravers or custom gun makers should have a separate FFL makes the same score as a simple card that says: I engrave guns, belong to an honorable guild, and think that someway could be found to allow me to receive and send guns. It is the IDEA of hand writing that counts -- anyone who is angry can pick up a phone -- but to spend the time to hand write something means you have more passion and time to spend campaigning against those who choose not to agree with you. And some people check your name against registered voters -- some don't. So your aunt Mildred from Kansas and your stereo-typed renegade militia captain with 600 buried M-16 scrawling a post card all count the same. So the idea is a sustained and prolonged letter writing campaign. Today you write, on Monday next you have your aunt Mildred write, and the Wednesday after that your uncle Byron from OK writes -- the idea is to start a grass roots campaign -- and the best place to start is your family. It also just dawns on me that the Safari club International might also like to become part of the letter writing campaign -- separate from their other endeavors -- since they seem to have guns that cost enough to warrant the change in legislation required for custom stocks, engraving, or specking out the mechanics. I would like to thank everyone who has responded to my posts here, as the info has been of great help. Sam, I ended up losing that job that i had mentioned, so I did not get to try out some of your suggestions. Thanks for all the input, though. If you would e-mail me,I would appreciated it, as I have lost your e-mail address in the confusion of changing over to a new isp. Thanks, Tom Really enjoyed the website. Thank You! FREE STUFF Wanted: Non working Dalgren System One engraving machine or similar with a bed approx 18 X 24.This is to be converted into a 3D engraver. I will be in Los/Ang San/Frisco area 11-17 Oct. Wtd info on etching onto finished custom knives Hello, I have been tinkering with the idea of having my initials and some minor scrolling done to my over/under shotgun. Could someone please email me what that should roughly cost and who in the New England area would be suited to take on such a small job? Also I make custom duck calls and if someone out there is interested in making a "trade", please email me. I can email pics of some calls if interested. Thank you for your time, John Glowa JMG Custom Duck Calls Mt. Vernon, Maine Mark Bell, I just saw your post re the FFL issue. The American Custom Gunmaker's Guild about 5 years ago started the ball rolling to get a seperate FFL for gunsmiths engravers, photographs, anyone who handles firearms. This FFl would not allow transfers. I even wrote to BATF and I have a letter from them advising that they were in favor of this, but it would take a change to Gun Control Act'68 to effect this. I have written to my Congressman and he said he would even introduce the legislation, and he did. this died with the end of the last Congress. On a number of occcasions I have writen to NRA/ILA asking for help with the legislative process to get this accomplished,given that everyone concerned is in favor. I hate to tell you this, but I cannot even get a reply from NRA. I don't know how to get things accomplished in Washington, and cannot get help where we need it. Do you have any ideas, or can you help., Try the following address for help on Shaw abrasives. If anyone knows they should as they are the British Abrasive Federation. Can anyone inform me of the UK address of Shaw Abrasives? I have a hand-held stylus with a diamond point for stipple glass-engraving made by Shaw Abrasives, which now requires sharpening or replacement. Shaw Abrasives previously had a London address. Are they still in London and still in business? If not, any information as to whom I might approach for help? Many thanks! Hello everyone. I just lauched a new website, and would appreciate any feedback. http://www.mcardleshandengraving.com Thanks, Tom If you are only going to pull a small amount of 24kt wire, you could make a plate easy enough with a piece of tool steel if you can drill the holes and harden the steel after, for that matter. If you are going to be pulling a lot of wire, it is a necessity and worth the extra money to get a carbide drawplate IMHO, especially if you're making jewelry also. I don't know brands, but Gesswein or Rio Grande have good prices I've heard and you can check the price online. :^) Because I like to use long pieces of wire and long pieces are hard to get pulling pure wire by hand, I'm wondering if it would work better to make a plate that goes up in size incrementally less than the plates I'm using, which are standard jewelry supply plates and on the last pull pass it through a carbide plate maybe? I find that with pure wire if it doesn't pass thru easily enough, it has a tendency to break off right where the wire comes out of the die. The high polish of the carbide helps the wire to pass thru easier and imparts it's finish to the wire, but that's a moot point when you're going to hammer it in anyway :^) I'm thinking that maybe a plate made where the wire is reduced at less of an increment will help. You can make a really good wire puller from a boat winch or a windlass and we've even used a come-a-long in a pinch, but then, we use a lot of wire. I'm pulling the pure wire by hand, like I said. Next time I inlay pure wire, I'll try it out about the drawplate and see how it goes. Cheers, Rick I collect the gold shaving in a plastic tray and at some point will either melt it down ar send it to a recycler. If I buy a drawplate what is a good brand? What ever works for you, Lee. I have actually used my draw plate (carbide) to draw soft iron wire to a size I needed to fill some old engraving and make similar repairs. Soft iron wire is available in some small sizes from ship modeling supply houses and I suppose other venues, but I needed it then and there. Also have used the plate to draw some aluminum snipped from a soda can to form some aluminum wire I needed. One of the things I don't do when drawing small wire is make it very long...the longer it is the easier to break. Also be sure you draw straight away from the plate, not angled. Lee, what do you do with the scrap gold? I am probably way out in left feild again but, I have never been convinced that I need to buy a drawplate. I keep about 3 sizes of wire on hand and make them work. I don't think it is any more expensive than sizing the wire and having wasted shavings and I think I'm saving time. This is an astute audience and I am expecting some convincing replies. I may yet buy a drawplate. I was always taught to take a hammer and work harden the end of the wire before pulling it, whatever karat, so this is the way I do it, hammering to form the taper. I see your point about the tongs and usually I just use pliers with a strip of emery paper that has been folded inward twice so as to grip the wire and the plier jaw faces both. I just find it a pain to pull pure wire as it wants to break a lot when it is small and we're using a lot of 22kt wire with platinum these days anyway :^) Thx for the tip! Rick Ricky, I also found a tip that helps me draw extra fine wire. The ready made draw tongs out there have too rough a surface for fine wire. I made a draw tongs with a regular (Kmart) plier by brazing onto the plier jaw surfaces small pieces of a cheap ignition point file from a hardware store. I oriented the file cut inward toward the plier the same as a draw tong's grip is cut. The fine 4/0 cut of the file is much better suited to filigree wire than the rough grain of a conventional draw tong. After brazing on the file pieces I ground the plier face into a usefull "duck bill" shape then rehardened and tempered the plier jaw. I also have a tapered "V" shaped grooved stake that I use to lightly forge the tapered end of the wire prior to drawing it to add a bit of hardness. I think you have something there about that wire Sam, as it does want to break at any sort of striation in it. Yes, I can see how you can taper it with 2 blocks such as you describe. Most jewelers seldom work with pure gold except as casting grain or an ingot maybe, so I appreciate the tip. The access to equipment comes and goes it seems, but if I inlaid as well as you I wouldn't change either. :^) I just mentioned it in passing for us guys who find those straight borders kinda hard to keep even and uniform width. Thanks again, Sam. Rick, your problem with the smaller wire may be in the way you taper the end of the wire so you can start it through the plate. If you use a fine file or sandpaper you can put scratches in the wire that form stress risers, or weak spots. Try rolling the end of the wire between two smooth flat pieces of steel plate. To explain think of the plates as rectangles...place your wire end about 3/4 inch onto one side of the bottom plate preferably held in a vise. Now, lay the other plate directly over the bottom one letting the edge opposite the wire touch the bottom plate. This will form a slight taper and as you roll the wire by moving the top plate back and forth you will do two things, form a taper in the gold without stress risers and work harden the end which will help hold it together. As for your other comments, sounds good to me, but I just don't have that kind of equipment and am happy with what I am doing. Good luck and let me know if this helps your drawing fine wire. Regards, Sam. Thanks for the prompt response, Sam. I have trouble pulling the very small pure wire as it tends to break where one grips it with the tongs or pliers and can be very frustrating.:^) I will try using the lube next time as you suggested. I pull all kinds of wire for jewelry and even the larger pure gold wire is no problem, but I have this problem with the very small stuff for some reason. Maybe I need to polish the drawplate holes possibly, you think? We have all the equipment for alloying, casting, etc., so like I said, I usually just add enough copper to make it just a little bit harder than pure and it works better for me. In Meek's book there is also a reference to casted animals that are then inlaid that I have tried instead of using sheet and it works well. You can cut out the pocket and use inlay wax to get the shape and cast a piece of metal for it or you can use the animal heads, etc. that are already sculpted and cut your pocket to fit it. I like your method of sculpting the metal under the raised inlay....never thought of that, but I bet it does work very well after thinking about it. I know that this will probally start trouble, but a rotary pantograph works very well for cutting out the pockets for inlays and you can get perfectly straight lines for line inlays also if you use a micro end mill and then cut your undercut by hand if it's a blind cut. If not, you can do the undercut with the pantograph also. It works very well in combination with the casted inlays and you can get the pocket so accurate that it will require moving very little metal to lock it in. It works great if you have the equipment available. Thanks for sharing, Sam. :^) I use 24K gold wire. I used to buy it in 1 mm size and draw it down but found that I almost never use anything larger than .020 inch so that is what I buy. I use a carbide draw plate and don't have trouble drawing to the smallest size. Use lube. Graver lube works for me. Most inlays that I do whether flush or raised use .016 inch wire. For raised inlays I sculpt animal shapes in the steel prior to cross hatching so as to not cut through the gold when I sculpt the gold. Seems to work really well as I never have that problem and the pounded in gold already has much of the shape of the animal. For flush just remove enough steel to allow only a small amount of gold remaining above the surface. My fine line borders in gold use .012 inch wire. The cross hatch method I use is as shown in Meek's book. I estimate the gold flattens out about half the original thickness plus what's in the cross hatches so the inlay is maybe .008 thick. A bit of shading and they look thicker. This method uses little gold and a quarter of an ounce is a lot of coverage on a gun. I collect all the scrap gold, clean it, melt it with a propane torch in a small crusible (small amounts of gold at a time are easiest) and then flatten out the blob of gold with hammer and steel plate. This "sheet", about 1 mm thick can be cut with sissors into strips and drawn through my draw plate back to wire form, no muss, no fuss. And if I need a small piece of "sheet" gold to fill an odd shape I get it from this reclaimed gold. Hope this helps. One could do a whole weeks seminar on inlays alone. Regards, Sam Hello Sam. Also, in regards to gold wire inlay, do you draw your own wire or purchase it? The 24kt seems to be difficult to draw into small wire, so usually I alloy it to about 22-23kt to make it draw better. Are you doing something similar or do you have any suggestions in that area? Your work is very nice. Thanks for your willingness to share. :^) Sam, You mentioned once that you use mostly wire for your gold inlays and I was wondering what diameter of gold wire you use for flush gold versus raised gold inlays. Thanks, Don The photos on this web site are the only ones available at this time. I hope to add a couple of new ones in the next few months. /sam For Sam Welch: Do you have photos on the internet or computer available of some of your latest work? mbell@cnmnetwork.com Is FEGA or better yet FEGA and all engravers interested in educating the State of California on engraving? We have an opportunity to do so. The Federal Government tells me I must have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) to engrave firearms. I have a letter from them stating such. The State of California is processing a law stating I can not have an FFL in my home in my city. This would effect many engravers in Califorina and in other states should this law be adapted by other state or the federal government. Often as California goes, so does other other state or the federal government. First of all I believe this law is against the Constitution that our founders and prior US citizens sacrificed for. It is wrong. Second, it will not help to lower crime. Yes, some people who sell guns are for it as it will eliminate competition, but using the law to eliminate competition is another evil. Third, it is unfair to engravers trying to comply with the law. It is a law that will do more harm to lawful citizens, cost money and manpower that should be used against criminals or for community services, and will serve to eliminate the art of firearms engraving. I would like FEGA, engravers, and other artists to organize against this. We could write letters to legislators and the governor so they will not sign this law into action. We should send photos of our work to them asking why they find this illegal. We should contact other artistic societies and ask them to protest For those interested in preserving engraving rights, rights to arms, and the Constitution we can use this as an example of the poor logic used by politicians to regulate our already legal lives and go garner support from those who can see the folly of the firearms prohibitionist. If interested please contact me. Mark I am looking for a used gravermax in good condition with large quick change hand piece. Are there any hand engravers out there that use a hand engraving tool to engrave small stones about the size of a dime or nickel. Have lady that wants volume. Thanks. Bulino (Power Assist): Set graver max @22-25 lb. and max speed 4,000 s/min., for low power high stroke rate. Grind a square graver 55 degrees face no heel and grind side and top relief to leave a small face. Slide a small piece of plastic or rubber tubing (tight fit) over cutter for comfort. Next, hold the square graver between the thumb and index finger, (like holding a pencil) and let the tool rest on the top of the hand between the thumb and index finger. Now, rest the thumb and middle finger on work piece with the tool on constant run and make your bulino cuts very (low power on a foot pedal). Work proceeds about 500% faster than the hand method with less fatigue and more control. Works best under a microscope at about 20-25X. A speed stop on the on the foot pedal makes for more control. The speed of the method makes it practical to use for scroll background and other fine shading effects as well as classical bulino applications. The same set up works well with a scriber point in the tool also makes for some very interesting and varied shading effects depending on tool speed and sharpness of the point. P.S. I don't know if I came up with something new or improved an existing method; I haven't seen it elsewhere. Jim Sonberg (The Experimenter)
To everyone that has helped I thank you all very much. I have ordered the book and am in the process of acquiring a gravermax. I hope to one day be able to show my work on this site. Regards Joe Joe, I was reading that you wanted to know about rotary tools. I have been using a paragraver for about 15 years. What Sam said about not having to buy the most expensive rotary tools is absolutely correct. If I would have known what I know now, I could have bought about 3 for the price I paid for one. I use my rotary tool for car shows and I also use it for glass work that I do. The diamond bits that I use, I get from my dentist. It use to be free, but when AIDS came along I can not get it from him anymore. But he lets me buy when he buys. I also use my handpiece in my scrimshaw work. I found that in glass and in ivory, it is good for outlining work. In metal, I use my graver max. I have better line control with it. I use my graver max the same as Sam mostly for stipplework and my line engraving. When I am working with ivory, I use my rotary tool for outline and I have a jailhouse tattoo machine that I use for all my stipplework. I have been looking on the net and they have a turbo carver for much cheaper and it looks just as good. I do not have the site address for the turbo carver, but I will try to find it. Thank you Sam for this form, hope to be able to talk with you guys more. Joe, I have zero experience with a rotary tool. All the engravers I know are not using a rotary except for the few applications sam mentioned. My experience is that Meeks' book is good however, personal contact with knowledgable engravers saved me many years of frustrating trial and error. For anyone starting out they would greatly benifit from engraving classes and/or contact with good experienced engravers. Artistic talent is an enormous plus but without the technical side you will flounder and become discouraged. Joe, glass is an entirely different subject to be sure. If our hand tools would work on glass we wouldn't have such fits with case hardened steel I assume you plan to use diamond burrs with the high speed tool. Since this creates glass dust I also assume you are not allowed to breath while working. If I remember right this is called glass engraving...with the use of burrs and diamond wheels to create designs in glass. The only sandblasting I have done on glass was to make frosted glass for a camera-obscura for making design transfers to metal. GRS used to (and may still) sell a diamond point tool for use in the pneumatic hammer for stipple work in glass. A good bit slower that blasting but creative. I plan to use one to stipple engrave designs on glass wind screens for my 1928 Ford roadster pickup truck. I have the rotary tool that GRS sells with the Gravermax (bought some 16 or 17 years ago. I find it works real well for some uses...will remove metal much faster than you think and can lead to problems without a delicate touch. Steer clear of the really expensive high speed rotary tools. As for the Lindsey and GRS high speed hand gravers, I've not used either but they both probably work well. Keep in touch. Regards, Sam Stev, and others You might be better served by looking at the following site: http://www.engraversjournal.com They seem to deal with the computerised end of things, and would have the expertise that you are looking for. I suspect most members of FEGA are like myself, relatively ignorant of that field, and unable to offer much help to you. Hope you all find what you are looking for, and maybe engravers journal can help. Thanks Guys, I will get the book recommended. Well I really want to add some detail to the sandblasting work for a start as it takes a bit too long with just blasting. Secondly I want to branch out and do the sort of stuff that I have seen Sam doing. We don't really have anyone doing anything like that over here. I know it is going to take alot of time and practise, but it will be worth it. I have looked at the engraver that Steve Lindsey is marketing as well but I see he is not taking orders at the moment. I think I need something that can do both glass and metal. At the moment I am doing 80% glass and a bit of rock with very little metal. Hope this helps Sam. Thanks again Sam and Darren. Joe...tell us a little about what you want to engrave. That way we can give better advice. I second the words of Darren...get The Art of Engraving if you are interested in gun engraving, or other forms of hand engraving for that matter. I would not consider a high speed machine (assuming you mean the rotary types available) to be engraving...carving maybe but not really engraving. And you certainly won't ever do the kind of work displayed on this site with one, at least not in toto. It may have it's use in background removal and some forms of sculpting. Anyway, let us know what you wish to accomplish. Regards, Sam Joe: I can't tell you much about high speed engravers, but if your planning to engrave fire arms you will want to get your hands on a copy of the book "The Art of Engraving" By "James B. Meek" this book is packed full of information on engraving and will give you alot of insight about the art. I went checking out some of the sites around for information about the different high speed engravers and have I alot to learn.... Lee you sure right about Sam been a great engraver but you up there too mate. I just wish I had a tenth of you or Sams knowledge. I still need some real good advise from someone about these highspeed engravers. I have the artistic talent but know zero on the engraving, so it will be by trial and error. Please can any one offer advise.
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